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回复 标记 0 支持 反对 als828 (1)
美国

What an interesting question and such great answers! It’s fascinating to see in this microcosm how so many are working to figure out ways to faithfully present the Gospel message! Thank you all for your dedication to this. We definitely need a better way to try to attract people to the Gospel -- not these false, empty promises!

14.04.2011

回复 标记 0 支持 反对 Joseph_Paul_Cadariu (5)  
美国

As I’ve said before, perhaps I would consider the Prosperity message if all the members of the congregation are as prosperous as the leaders of the "movement."  We are called to help the poor, to give liberally, to consider others more than ourselves. Not to accumulate more and keep it.

Your request to share stories of the gospel that brings economic and ecological "success"...how about stories that bring spiritual results.  Cursing the darkness is a growing quasi-Christian dogma, whether it is the prosperity message, the leader from the "other" political party, complaining about the "West" or the "English language" etc., etc.  I’d like to hear stories of people coming to Christ at whatever level, and how they are being discipled and nurtured.

16.08.2010

回复 标记 0 支持 反对 David_Allen_Bledsoe (3)  
巴西
@ Joseph_Paul_Cadariu:

Joseph,

I agree for the most part with your comment. I was also perplexed with the beseech for ecological examples in response to the prosperity Gospel and believe we need to be about helping people out of it and into the true Gospel itself. Thus, I give you a testimony of seeing the Lord do just that.

The Lord put in my life and in my cell group of my church a young family who came out of Catholicism and went into Spiritism and then found themselves being pulled into a Brazilian Neo-Pentecostal church that emphasizes dually Prosperity Gospel along with extreme spiritual warfare tactics to acquire the needed prosperity relief. By the time I met them, they considered themself "evangelicals"; the only problem is they had yet to comprehend the Gospel.

Over a period of four months, this couple and I studied the Bible, the book of John, through an already prepared evangelistic Bible study. We prayed, they asked questions, they searched the Scriptures, as they wanted to understand the Gospel. Thank the Lord, they professed Christ as their Savior and were baptized in our church. It was a blessing to watch the Holy Spirit reveal what I call the "evangelical-based Gospel" to them and see their worldview go through a transformation. The Gospel truly is the power of God (Rom. 1.16)

18.08.2010

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美国
@ David_Allen_Bledsoe:

What a marvelous testimony.  Thanks for sharing, brother.

18.08.2010

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肯尼亚
@ David_Allen_Bledsoe:

Hi David, Thanks for this sharing. There seem to be strong parallels between the African and Brazilian scene … !

My heart warms to the testimony you give above. It is great to take people through such an experience.

The difficulty I see is the ‘I’. My reading of your account, is that it took a lot of intensive inputs from yourself (and maybe your wife, although you do not mention that?)

In other words, reflecting really on my scene here, as prompted by your account, the ‘evangelical-based Gospel’ is not easily reachable through the local culture. Local people don’t do what you did … And they aren’t doing what you did here either.

I think a western missionary could do here what you did. People here have a lot of awe for western missionaries, and would be ready to take that kind of trouble. I am a bit different – a single man, and living in ‘relative poverty’ … I am not at all sure I could convince someone to do that. When we have our Bible classes, I am constantly told that if we want to ‘advance’ (grow) either I need to bring in money from overseas (thus making the classes into another model based on dependency) or have more emphasis on prayer for healing and for money.

Where to from here?

19.08.2010

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巴西
@ Jim_Harries:

Jim

thanks for the kind response. There are indeed more than just cursory similarities between Brazil and societies in Africa. Because of the slave labor during the Portuguese colonization days, literally millions of slaves were brought in. Upon arrival, most were batched-baptized as Catholics yet they held their ATR in the other hand. In fact, many of our low-spiritist religions have Catholic saints with an equivalent African spirit attached to it. Thus, Brazilian popular spirituality is tied to the fear-based culture with an African flavor along with the already folk Catholicism brought over by the Portuguese and some original indeginous spirituality.

This spiritual blend has created a seedbed for syncretistic temptation for evangelicals, which has raised to new levels since the 1980’s with the newer wave of Pentecostalism called Neo-Pentecostalism or third-wave Pentecostalism. Most associated with this movement are now longer tempted, they are in the syncretistic pool with the unfortunate association still of evangelicals. For many, being evangelical is to declare you are Christian but now Catholic. It is here where we need to help our national brothers with what is an evangelical from a biblical, historical sense. 

Although the conversion of friends I mentioned was also through a group project (cell group), I had the blessing of meeting in their home. My wife usually hung back at the house, although I do not want to deminish her role. The couple’s children pariticipated in our cell group too. Thus, they had the blessing of a two-railed experience to the gospel - a witness one-on-one and a community lifestyle experience.

I believe we as missionaries have an opportunity to hopefully help the nationals understand how to do what I testified in doing. It is not rocket science in that we have three significant elements available to us: the Word of God, the Holy Spirit to guide and empower us, and the last would be a relationship. Of course the last-mentioned is the least significant in that it is not a divine source, but the relationship still implies a building of trust, walking with another over a period of time, drinking a lot of coffee, understanding who they are and what challenges need to be overcome for the Gospel to enter their hearts, praying for them, etc.

Over on this side, witnessing to a person who is trapped in a Prosperity Theology group is just like witnessing to a cult member. In fact, it really is a cult group for it emphasizes topics on the edges of Christianity, ends up in self effort/justification, reduces/distorts the Gospel, has a primary discourse outside of the primary theme of Scripture, creates fear in a person if he/she considers leaving, and involves syncretistic practices tied to popular religions.

I would like to say I have seen hundreds come out of such groups, but I have not. I do pray that the Lord will give me the privilege of working with others who He has prepared to consider the evangelical-based Gospel. In fact, I am hoping to write a book in Port on the topic of Brazilian Neo-Pentecostalism to help the evangelical community in ministering to people who have fallen prey to such groups.  Please pray with me about this.

Blessings

David

20.08.2010

回复 标记 0 支持 反对 Jim_Harries (-3)
肯尼亚
@ David_Allen_Bledsoe:

Thanks for this detail David. Very helpful.

My ’home church’ I guess ’is’ steeped in prosperity. Frankly - I don’t think there is a church in this area that isn’t, one way or another. Hence - kind of ’no foundation’ to work on in the local community to ’get out’ of the trap. Unless, I set up a ’foundation’, but I doubt I’d do it without money, in which case I’d be replicating what I am trying to do away with ... It is like, if you don’t talk ’prosperity’ you ’don’t understand’. 

Now, that is not entirely true. Messages are preached that are not prosperity - every now and then. Yawn ... !

This topic is of course very vulnerable to ’interpretation’. That is; while it may be clear to me that we have a case of ’prosperity’ going on, that does not mean that it is clear to all.  In other words - not everyone will agree that what is going on is ’prosperity gospel’ ...

20.08.2010

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瑞士
@ David_Allen_Bledsoe:

I would question the idea of ’cult’ being spoken towards prosperity kind of churches and third wave penticostalism in South America. Is this helpful? Is not our mission the whole gospel with the whole church to the whole world?

23.08.2010

回复 标记 0 支持 反对 David_Allen_Bledsoe (3)  
巴西

Given your person and your context, I would be most interested and honored with your response to my article that I posted on Prosperity Theology. You may search for it under my name.

13.07.2010

回复 标记 0 支持 反对 Jim_Harries (-3)
肯尼亚

Hi Ruth, Thanks for this contribution. ... I don’t think it is quite as simple as that.

We can take the prosperity gospel apart as often as we want to, but yet it will still be there - it seems to me. This is because it is not dependent on particular formulations of verses from the Scriptures. But, it is there (in part at least) because of certain structural relations between peoples in different parts of the world. Particularly, the ’south’ verses the ’north’. The north we can say is the ’great provider’, and many of the providers like to do their job with a conscience, so put a wrapping ’Christian’ on it - so is it any wonder that ’receivers’ associate the ’Christian’ wrapping with the material contents?

Overcoming prosperity gospel then, surely, must include a dismantling of this structure. That isn’t as easy as typing on a computer keyboard, or even as raising money. If the Gospel does not give us prosperity, then what does it give us? If indeed it gives us eternal life, then why are so many of the originators of the same (Northerners) so desperately hooked on their wealthy lifestyles? Why instead of doing mission with flesh and blood these days more and more people do it through ATMs? For mission not to result in prosperity gospel, it must be written in blood and sweat, and not dollars and projects. 

For an additional comment I can draw on some personal reading of a book by Speckman, who says: "Could the story of Jesus be narrated without the use of miracle stories? No, because it would then have no credibility in antiquity".[1] Now, if he is right, could the same not apply to places outside the West even today? Could miracles be a necessary part of spreading the Gospel? Our understanding of ‘miracle’ may be misleading. It is not, fundamentally, a breaking of laws of nature at all, but something … amazing. Nowadays we ‘wow’ the poor with what our technology can buy. That wasn’t happening in New Testament times, but ‘miracles’ were very normal. We need kinds of ‘miracles’ that don’t hang on Western money.

[1] Speckman, M.T. 2007. A Biblical Vision for Africa’s Development?  Pietermaritzburg: Cluster Publications.

17.06.2010

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