The Lausanne Global Conversation is on the World Wide Open Network
Autor: Hussein Hajji Wario
Data: 10.06.2011
Category: Verdade & Pluralismo, Fé no Mundo, Grupos de Povos Não Alcançados
One of my Muslim Facebook friends asks:
If the father and Jesus are one, then if Jesus died, the father [sic] died. If they are separate and only Jesus died, then the father and the holy spirit [sic] remained, and thus Jesus and the father are not the same. Can you address this issue without talking about Muslims.
When Jesus died, the Father didn’t die. When Jesus died, the Three (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) did not reduce to the two. Please, read a good explanation HERE. I would like to enlist the Belgic Confession of Faith to answer my friend’s question further. The Confession reads:
The Belgic Confession of Faith is available online on several websites. You can read this version HERE.
The Nicene Creed (circa 325 A.D.) and the Creed of Chalcedon (circa 451 A.D.) have some excellent explanations on the Three and the two natures of Jesus Christ respectively. How would you respond?
Palavras-chave: muslim, Christian, Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Belgic Confession, Nicene Creed, Creed of Chalcedon
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Comentários: 22
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Estados Unidos
When Jesus Died, Did the Trinity Reduce to two? NO! Let us
not forget, that He died on the cross but in three days He rose. That is the
foundation of the Christian faith, that we believe God raise Him from the dead,
so He now on the right hand of the Father. We must remember that Jesus was
human and divine. So His flesh died and His spirit rose. So the Trinity is
intact as it has always has been. 1-We come from God (made in His image), 2-we
were saved by Jesus (He reconciled us back to God)and 3- are governed by the Holy
Spirit (He will abide with you forever, John 14:16,). Yes, yes, one, two three,
the Trinity, completed for those who believe.
21.04.2012
Estados Unidos
@ J_Ruth:
There are two things that I think are important to note in this discussion: 1) Even though the Trinity is 3-in-1, each of the three have distinct aspects that are unique (as was mentioned in the article above); and 2) It is crucial to remember that Christ arose after 3 days and is alive!
01.05.2013
Estados Unidos
No, when Jesus died the Trinity did not reduce to two. The only thing that died was Jesus’ fleshly body, but not Jesus himself. The trinity is three in one. For instance, my name is Rachel, yet I am a student, a mother, and a wife, I am not three persons, I am still Rachel and yet I have three different functions. I was taught this from my pastor, Gaither Danner. The trinity can also be seen like a person. For instance, I have a body, soul, and a spirit, but yet I am still one person, Rachel. So when Jesus died, the trinity continued on, God never died. The trinity is one God, but the Father,Son, and the Holy Ghost just have different functions. I agree whole heartedly with the Belgic Confession of Faith.
12.07.2011
Estados Unidos
@ Rapture7:
I so agree with your post. We have so many different functions and have to switch gears accordingly. But God can do it simutaneously all over the world for all situations.
15.07.2011
Estados Unidos
@ Rapture7:
I feel like your definition of death is being limited to a human understanding. All of God expierenced death on the cross, this does not meaning that they were dead in the way that we die but the expierience of death was there. Jesus died truly not just his flesh but his wholeness died.
22.11.2011
Estados Unidos
@ BrimstoneAGS:
The idea of having a body spirit and soul is a philosophy of Plato and is not found in the scripture. also be careful when speaking of God being in different roles and modes because modalism is a known heresy that is being revived
22.11.2011
Estados Unidos
@ BrimstoneAGS:
I am not fully comprehending what you are trying to say here. I was wondering if you could expand on the what you mean by "wholeness of death." When I think of this I can’t help but thinking in terms of body, spirit, and soul, which you warn against. I am just curious about your train of thought here....
28.11.2011
Estados Unidos
@ jdb11583:
By wholeness of death I mean that every distinict member of the trinity expierenced death on the cross. Death is more than just the abscence of life just as life is than just not being dead. The father and spirit do not simply cease existance when jesus dies but they do expierence that death I do not know for sure how that plays out for something eternal but anything that was not taken on by al three can not be saved within us.
28.11.2011
Estados Unidos
well said Hussein,
when Jesus died, the three did not reduce to two. At the moment that Christ died, His humanity died not his divine essence. That means that Jesus was, is and will always be 100% divine. Even when He was on earth, He was 100% man and 100% divine. That was the only way that he could save us from our sins. He is the only one who conquered death at the cross and provided direct acces to the Father through faith in Him.
03.11.2011
Estados Unidos
well said Hussein,
when Jesus died, the three did not reduce to two. At the moment that Christ died, His humanity died not his divine essence. That means that Jesus was, is and will always be 100% divine. Even when He was on earth, He was 100% man and 100% divine. That was the only way that he could save us from our sins. He is the only one who conquered death at the cross and provided direct acces to the Father through faith in Him.
03.11.2011
Estados Unidos
One important doctrine that we have to remeber is the fact that God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son are co-eternal in every aspect. That means that all three of them have the same divine essence, the same exact power, and the same purpose. thereofore, all three persons of the Trinity are in harmony in order to carry out God’s plan of salvation.
03.11.2011
Estados Unidos
One important doctrine that we have to remeber is the fact that God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son are co-eternal in every aspect. That means that all three of them have the same divine essence, the same exact power, and the same purpose. thereofore, all three persons of the Trinity are in harmony in order to carry out God’s plan of salvation.
03.11.2011
Estados Unidos
I find the trinity to be one of the hardest concepts to discribe! I am in agreement that the trinity remained the trinity upon Christ’s death. I grew up with the simple understanding that the body of Christ, which was completely human, died. However, the spirit of God that dwelled within the flesh cannot die. Therefore, no part of God was ever lost. When reading this article the word Perichoresis came to mind. Here is a good illustration of perichoresis (I did not read the article. The main focus is the illustration). It illustrates that all three are separate entities, but that all are a part of God. Therefore, none can be destroyed.
03.11.2011
Estados Unidos
good point marcus 14,
I think that we are in agreement that the doctrine of the Trinity is one of the essential doctrines for Christianity. In regards to the article that asks the question if the Trinity was reduced to two when Jesus died I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always been one and have never separated from each other. All three of them have been at work long before God created man for the fact the they all have the same eternal nature. Therefore, they are the indivisible divinities who are working together in the world to fulfill God’s plan of Salvation.
22.10.2011
Estados Unidos
I am also in agreement that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit form the complete and holy trinity. They all have the same divine essence, power, and purpose. Neither one contradicts the other. Instead, the trinity always fulfills God’s perfect will on earth and in heaven. When Jesus died at the cross, He conquered sin and death. In addition to that, He provided salvation for all mankind. The Holy Spirit came to the disciples soon after Jesus ascended to heaven with the purpose of reminding them the exact same teachings that Jesus taught them.
20.10.2011
Estados Unidos
The Lord our God is one and the trinity is how God has chosen to reveal God’s self to the Christian Church. The idea that only one of the persons of the trinity dies/suffers is heartbreaking to me. As humans we see things only in limited linear way life is a line that begins at birth and ends at death. The radicalness of Jesus’ incarnation is that the eternal enters into our limitedness but this does not remove Jesus from his eternalness. This means that it not just Jesus who suffers the pains of death but instead it is the whole godhead who is suffering. Note that i am not saying that God dies but instead I am advocating that if all do not suffer what we can expierence as death than we have not been saved from death. My God must be a God who suffers with me or my suffering in this life is in vain.
20.09.2011
Estados Unidos
No! When Jesus died the Trinity didn’t become two. When Jesus died, the Trinity became complete. The Holy Spirit couldn’t come until Jesus went!!
18.07.2011
Estados Unidos
@ marcus14:
You exactly right the trinity did not reduce to two. People are foolish and ignorant if they believe it did.
18.07.2011
Estados Unidos
@ marcus14:
Well said Marcus, without the three we would be incomplete, thank God for the opportunity to be made being and complete
19.07.2011
Estados Unidos
@ Phil9759:
Thank God for the trintiy. Without the three we would be incomplete. Thank God for being made whole and complete
19.07.2011
Estados Unidos
I agree with your assessment. The Trinity shows how God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are 3 in 1. They are One God but separate and distinct from one another. That’s why Jesus felt the separation from the Father for a short time on the cross when He died. The Father felt the anguish and loss of His Son but they were, are and ever will be the same God and the trinity did not and will not diminish.
12.07.2011
Estados Unidos
@ MzBoom:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, I liked especially when you said, " the Father felt, the separation and lost when Jesus was on the cross." At least, "you did not say God died." I know the Father suffered when Jesus died on the cross, but the Father did not die.
It would be good if you wrote more on the separation and anguish of the Father.
17.07.2011
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