The Lausanne Global Conversation is on the World Wide Open Network
Autor: nic paton
Fecha: 19.10.2010
Category: Compromiso con Las Escrituras
After a discussion around the use of the idea of Hell in preaching, theology and mission, a pastor friend of mine remarked, "If you take hell away, there goes my ministry."
How many of us find ourselves in this situation?
Does the Love which holds the cosmos intact at some point fail? Is punishment hidden away in the secret heart of God? How do we appeal to the demands of mercy and also of justice? Where does the doctrine of everlasting punitive separation come from? Do we have the energy to uncover its architecture? Is it a core, non-negotiable evangelical or Christian value? Can evil and hell be explained alternatively, for example psychologically? Will Satan or Hitler be saved in the end? What might a gospel expunged of the threat of everlasting punitive separation look like? Do we have the imagination to grasp how high, wide or deep that might be?
And why has hellfire preaching fallen out of fashion? Is it because it’s an embarrassment and damaging to the gospel of grace, or is it because we have stopped believing in it? Has it gone underground, and if so does this sublimation not do deep unseen damage to our collective faith?
Opening this Pandora’s Box might keep one occupied for years. But to be brief and direct, is a dogma of hell central to your faith?
Palabras clave: hell, doctrine, dogma, punishment, grace, love, imagination, deconstruction
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Comentarios: 4
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Estados Unidos de Norteamérica
I think mentioning hell is necessary. It’s what makes the good news really great news, instead of an eventual moot point if even Hitler gets there one day.
In my presentation of it, I do carefully use the word "timeless" instead of "eternal". I do this because of what we know of space/time. Here’s a video that very simply explains the bit I’m getting at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA
That bit in the video about the long line from your birth until your death, I’d imagine God is able to see our lives as something more like that.
I’m not a physics expert, but from what I do know of E=mc*2, if something were to have infinite energy (omnipotence?), or infinite mass (omnipresence?), or both, then that thing or entity would transcend time. I believe that’s what we think God does already. It just took physicists until the past century to catch up.
I’ve said all of that to say, if we better educate ourselves about the world God has created, we can better understand things that previously only had VERY uncomfortable explanations and implications (such as election, eternal damnation).
Not that it makes hell more comfortable, it just makes existing there more of a fact and less sadistic-seeming.
Now I have a question. Did Jesus "descend" to hell? If he took our punishment paid in full, and we deserve a timeless hell, then wouldn’t he have to pay that part as well? Doesn’t scripture support this thought?
If you think of spiritual realms as existing outside of time, then it makes it easier to understand. There is no duration for the punishment. You are either there, or you aren’t. To be sure, it will seem like an eternity, and if you don’t have the power to remove yourself from it, it would be in a sense. We as finite beings don’t have the ability to really understand this type of existence. Only God and--possibly--other spiritual beings (angels, good or bad) do. Because we are limited by time, we view everything from a "timed" perspective.
So, there’s my can of worms, all opened up.
20.10.2010
Sudáfrica
@ JeremyB:
Jeremy B
Some interesting musings, thank you.
While I enjoy your openness, I think you are approaching this dogmatically i.e. your assumptions are as yet unexamined.
Here are some comments:
"It’s what makes the good news really great news" - Really great news for me would not be the opposite of hell, it would be the fullest presence of goodness. It’s like the old joke about I hit my head so that when I stop it feels so good.
"we deserve a timeless hell" - I don’t agree. I’m not saying we don’t sin, but how should a just God punish a finite sinner infinitely? Is that biblical justice? How do we derive original sin from scripture which starts in Gen 1 - "And it was good"?
"Doesn’t scripture support this thought?" - Scripture, with punative assumptions removed, looks way different to how many people imagine it.
Here are 3 scriptures:
To bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men ...
Does this not point to a victory for grace and love?
If you examine the textual support for the doctrine of endless punative separation (and I know it can be done), it starts to look pretty contrived next to the overarching story of redemption and promise to bless all nations.
20.10.2010
Estados Unidos de Norteamérica
@ nicpaton:
Thank you for that. You’re correct too, in my dogmatism. I do come from a denomination that holds that belief. Not that I don’t question it. It’s a shame to say this, but I would be blacklisted, called a heretic, shunned, whatever you want to call it. I would be unable to work where my heart is to work, if I voiced a belief other than those that are held by my denomination.
I do, however, "wonder". I suppose that is safe? I read Revelation 21:1-4, and I just don’t see how "no more sorrow, nor crying; no more pain, for the former things have passed away." can mean anything but that. And I don’t see a clause in there for "wailing and gnashing of teeth", although I also don’t see an expiration date on verse 8 of that chapter.
But, that is where I’m stuck, having to sign a paper acknowledging my denomination’s beliefs, so that I can be fired one day if I change my mind. I’d also rather be safe than sorry, so to speak (not that I’d lie, just that if I’m not sure, I’d rather walk cautiously, and not take anyone else down with me.)
21.10.2010
Sudáfrica
@ JeremyB:
Wow! You are amazingly frank.
Is it safe to "wonder"? Jeremy, wondering is prayer, it is meditation, it is mulling over this great mystery called Life. Ask the Rabbis - they are professional "wonderers", constantly keeping in the mystery by answering question with further questions.
Rev 21: "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." What an amazing and beautiful vision.
Have you read Brian McLarens trilogy "A new kind of Christian"? It deals with a situation very like yours.
22.10.2010
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